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Straight ticket

Started by Crewe, October 23, 2018, 12:43:41 PM

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Crewe

Some tie ago, my dad had been appointed Judge to a vacant seat by our governor. He then ran for re election against someone who was astonishingly under qualified without the proper temperament for the job all the while making himself available to answer any and all questions from potential voters.
He lost.
He lost to a bevy of straight ticket pullers who ushered in Reagan and his era.
Once the public began presenting cases to the new judge, it was an immediate shit show. They complained loudly. The local news got involved because it was so bad. Clearly unqualified to be a judge the news would report.
No shit? Imagine that. Wonder who voted for that idiot?
As a young man who couldn't vote yet, I was broken by this instance.
When I was able to vote, I swore I would never pul a straight ticket, ever.

Fast forward to today. In my mind, if there ever was a time that legitimately endorsed voting down one line, this is certainly it.
But I still can't go straight ticket because I remember that feeling, still, and Id hate to be responsible for someone else having that same experience.
Is it better than not voting at all? Im not so sure it is, but that's another debate.
The point here? Please research the candidates on your ballot with as much as an open mind as you can muster because it matters.
Its painstaking and monotonous but its necessary.
I just completed my ballot of over 100 candidates and I hope you do too.

BojackHorsefella

Quote from: Crewe on October 23, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
The point here? Please research the candidates on your ballot with as much as an open mind as you can muster because it matters.
Its painstaking and monotonous but its necessary.

I think this is the key. The fact is, a true, free democracy can't function without educated citizens (and I don't mean everyone has to have an Ivy League degree). There's a LOT of misinformation out there, it's important to have the facts straight.

I'd also say, what you're feeling (it feels wrong to go straight ticket, isn't it wrong to just not vote) is VERY similar to how people approached the 2016 election (both candidates are the same, I'm voting third party as a protest vote, Bernie didn't win the primary so I'm sitting out the general) and we saw how well that worked. There's a LOT of issues in our country right now, whatever side of those issues you're on, and the only way to start to fix those is to vote, period. I know it's exhausting, I know we're all tired, but we gotta do it. An informed populace that hits the polls in massive numbers will always be better than the alternative.

Crewe

Quote from: Bucfever on October 23, 2018, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Crewe on October 23, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
The point here? Please research the candidates on your ballot with as much as an open mind as you can muster because it matters.
Its painstaking and monotonous but its necessary.

I think this is the key. The fact is, a true, free democracy can't function without educated citizens (and I don't mean everyone has to have an Ivy League degree). There's a LOT of misinformation out there, it's important to have the facts straight.

I'd also say, what you're feeling (it feels wrong to go straight ticket, isn't it wrong to just not vote) is VERY similar to how people approached the 2016 election (both candidates are the same, I'm voting third party as a protest vote, Bernie didn't win the primary so I'm sitting out the general) and we saw how well that worked. There's a LOT of issues in our country right now, whatever side of those issues you're on, and the only way to start to fix those is to vote, period. I know it's exhausting, I know we're all tired, but we gotta do it. An informed populace that hits the polls in massive numbers will always be better than the alternative.

This was what my question was addressing. is it better to pull a straight ticket, ending up with situations like I described, or not vote at all? Im not making a declaration one way or the other but instead using that to push the agenda of an informed voter as you seconded.

BojackHorsefella

I mean, in the context of our current reality, I'm all for a straight ticket. If we had two (or more) actually competent political parties, that may be one thing, but in this time we have a party that wants to strip rights from its citizens and turn the US into a 1950s prison state, and then the other guys. So I'd rather vote entirely for the other guys.

Crewe

#4
This will sound biased of course, but I witnessed many proclamations of extreme pride in voting straight tickets, on both sides tonight. From my perspective, its a little more warranted from the left given the tumultuous reign of the right.
Texas stays red as we've re elected that spineless, gutless buffoon Ted Cruz again, et al. Yay for a state that's 95% rural I guess.
However, locally, nearly every major seat that was incumbent red was ousted. Of those 100 races I partook in? All but one (my precinct commissioner) turned blue.
Every single district judge race of which there were dozens upon dozens, all flushed out the republicans. You might think, as a left leaner, Id be thrilled.
But, there were some Democrats that filed just to catch the blue wave that were not qualified and now they sit as honorable officials. I hope it turns out well.
But this is exactly what failed my old man and this was specifically why I abhor straight ticket voting.

I have a friend who's a right winger and he pulls a straight ticket. When I asked him why, he said, "because there is not one point on the Republican platform that I disagree withe so if you are Republican, you align yourself with those beliefs which means I support you."
What fatally flawed logic, but, you know you can't talk politics with anyone.

btw norm, did I see that Hostess stock is about to go through the roof in Michigan?  :D

Crewe

To tack on, my post wasn't meant to cheapen your or anyone else's opinion, just sharing my experience.

Rigg44

I agree with almost every thing you said.  The only disagreement I have is with your assertion that this time more than any other could see straight ticket voting excused. This more than any other time is when critical thinking is needed not sheep like voting.  I know you lean more left, or it seems that way if not sorry for the assumption, but the left is no more guiltless than the right in creating our current environment.  This has been building for years.  We have moved out of a world where compromise was seen as a good thing into a world where "team" or party is all that matters.  It is the most divided, hateful, and childish I have ever seen politics in this country and that is really saying something. So to my point each candidate has to be evaluated on his or her merits now more than ever.  We need people that will reach across the ill not bully the other when they are in power, like both sides have done for the last couple of presidencies.     

BojackHorsefella

Quote from: Rigg44 on November 08, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
I agree with almost every thing you said.  The only disagreement I have is with your assertion that this time more than any other could see straight ticket voting excused. This more than any other time is when critical thinking is needed not sheep like voting.  I know you lean more left, or it seems that way if not sorry for the assumption, but the left is no more guiltless than the right in creating our current environment.  This has been building for years.  We have moved out of a world where compromise was seen as a good thing into a world where "team" or party is all that matters.  It is the most divided, hateful, and childish I have ever seen politics in this country and that is really saying something. So to my point each candidate has to be evaluated on his or her merits now more than ever.  We need people that will reach across the ill not bully the other when they are in power, like both sides have done for the last couple of presidencies.   

It's very hard when one side continues to shirk norms (Merrick Garland), accuse Dems constantly of obstruction (they're the minority party?), and promote policies that disenfranchise and oppress minorities (race, LBGTQ, etc). And that's the foundation of their policies. How are you supposed to reach across the aisle and "compromise" with bigoted ideologies?

The Republicans that are in office are not the best of the bunch, or, at least, I sure do hope they aren't. They've gone above and beyond to protect people like Trump and Kavanaugh who have 0 credibility, all because they want power.

What led to this is not Dem and GOP policies. GOP has been far more focused at state level than Dems, which has led to crazy amounts of gerrymandering, voter suppression (Hello, Brian Kemp), and then insane tactics like the North Carolina Assembly removing electoral power from the governor position once a Dem was elected (Something Wisconsin is now also trying to do now that they've elected a Dem governor as well).

GOP has used oppressive, corrupt tactics to gain and retain their power. It was only a llarge voter turnout that got Dems the House, and we still see the effects of that gerrymandering in the Senate. Hell, even in a lot of states, you had progressive polices passing, yet people who opposed those policies winning the vote? (Cruz, DeSantis, Kemp).

Lets call it like it is. There is a rot inside the GOP right now, and it's powered by appeals to Trump's base. We have an actual white nationalist in Iowa in Steve King. We have Trump, who literally referred to himself as a "nationalist." We have the White House press secretary sending out a clearly doctored video to the public today trying to accuse a member of the press of violence when there was none. Oh, also, there's that whole constantly attacking the free press thing, even after they were sent pipe bombs.

Say what you may about presidents prior, they did not attack the countless, countless groups Trump has, in the way he has. His words, his rhetoric, is dangerous, and we've already seen him spouting off conspiracy theories (globalists! George Soros!) and radicalizing domestic terrorists, like the pipe bomb mailer or the synagogue shooter who identified with Trump but "didn't think he went far enough."

Hell, it's been two days since the election, I haven't heard one word about the caravan. Was it really a threat, or just a way to stir up Trump's base into voting with racist fears (hint: it was the latter).

Hell, so many of Trump's campaign team have now been indicted or plead guilty. Obama nor Bush had to deal with such things. And, again, the GOP continues to protect this man. Hell, if Trump were gone they could have Pence! You think they'd like that, but they prefer Trump, because the way he talks, the things he says, activate their base, doesn't bore them.

I'm good on electing people who choose to look the other way on this crap. "His policies align with mine" is no excuse for sticking your head in the sand when groups in this country are under constant fear of having their rights stripped away.

Crewe

Quote from: Rigg44 on November 08, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
I agree with almost every thing you said.  The only disagreement I have is with your assertion that this time more than any other could see straight ticket voting excused. This more than any other time is when critical thinking is needed not sheep like voting.  I know you lean more left, or it seems that way if not sorry for the assumption, but the left is no more guiltless than the right in creating our current environment.  This has been building for years.  We have moved out of a world where compromise was seen as a good thing into a world where "team" or party is all that matters.  It is the most divided, hateful, and childish I have ever seen politics in this country and that is really saying something. So to my point each candidate has to be evaluated on his or her merits now more than ever.  We need people that will reach across the ill not bully the other when they are in power, like both sides have done for the last couple of presidencies.   

I appreciate this thought.

Crewe

Quote from: Bucfever on November 08, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: Rigg44 on November 08, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
I agree with almost every thing you said.  The only disagreement I have is with your assertion that this time more than any other could see straight ticket voting excused. This more than any other time is when critical thinking is needed not sheep like voting.  I know you lean more left, or it seems that way if not sorry for the assumption, but the left is no more guiltless than the right in creating our current environment.  This has been building for years.  We have moved out of a world where compromise was seen as a good thing into a world where "team" or party is all that matters.  It is the most divided, hateful, and childish I have ever seen politics in this country and that is really saying something. So to my point each candidate has to be evaluated on his or her merits now more than ever.  We need people that will reach across the ill not bully the other when they are in power, like both sides have done for the last couple of presidencies.   

It's very hard when one side continues to shirk norms (Merrick Garland), accuse Dems constantly of obstruction (they're the minority party?), and promote policies that disenfranchise and oppress minorities (race, LBGTQ, etc). And that's the foundation of their policies. How are you supposed to reach across the aisle and "compromise" with bigoted ideologies?

The Republicans that are in office are not the best of the bunch, or, at least, I sure do hope they aren't. They've gone above and beyond to protect people like Trump and Kavanaugh who have 0 credibility, all because they want power.

What led to this is not Dem and GOP policies. GOP has been far more focused at state level than Dems, which has led to crazy amounts of gerrymandering, voter suppression (Hello, Brian Kemp), and then insane tactics like the North Carolina Assembly removing electoral power from the governor position once a Dem was elected (Something Wisconsin is now also trying to do now that they've elected a Dem governor as well).

GOP has used oppressive, corrupt tactics to gain and retain their power. It was only a llarge voter turnout that got Dems the House, and we still see the effects of that gerrymandering in the Senate. Hell, even in a lot of states, you had progressive polices passing, yet people who opposed those policies winning the vote? (Cruz, DeSantis, Kemp).

Lets call it like it is. There is a rot inside the GOP right now, and it's powered by appeals to Trump's base. We have an actual white nationalist in Iowa in Steve King. We have Trump, who literally referred to himself as a "nationalist." We have the White House press secretary sending out a clearly doctored video to the public today trying to accuse a member of the press of violence when there was none. Oh, also, there's that whole constantly attacking the free press thing, even after they were sent pipe bombs.

Say what you may about presidents prior, they did not attack the countless, countless groups Trump has, in the way he has. His words, his rhetoric, is dangerous, and we've already seen him spouting off conspiracy theories (globalists! George Soros!) and radicalizing domestic terrorists, like the pipe bomb mailer or the synagogue shooter who identified with Trump but "didn't think he went far enough."

Hell, it's been two days since the election, I haven't heard one word about the caravan. Was it really a threat, or just a way to stir up Trump's base into voting with racist fears (hint: it was the latter).

Hell, so many of Trump's campaign team have now been indicted or plead guilty. Obama nor Bush had to deal with such things. And, again, the GOP continues to protect this man. Hell, if Trump were gone they could have Pence! You think they'd like that, but they prefer Trump, because the way he talks, the things he says, activate their base, doesn't bore them.

I'm good on electing people who choose to look the other way on this crap. "His policies align with mine" is no excuse for sticking your head in the sand when groups in this country are under constant fear of having their rights stripped away.

My intent wasn't to go this deep, but I did steer the conversation.
I made that comment that the left had a more viable reason based on such examples.

I neglected to point out in my response to riggings, that yes, I did say I was left leaning so n apologies for incorrect assumption.

Rigg44

#10
I am a registered independent.  I definitely lean more conservative but don't affiliate with either party.  I know you think what you are saying is profound or true but its not.  Everyone of my conservative friends felt exactly the same as you do now under Obama.  They could list the ways that the liberal progressives were destroying the fabric of the country and Obama was abusing his power bla bla bla... its not true on either side. Trump is a jerk but his no more evil that Obama was.    Everything he says is conflated just as it was on the other side for Obama.  Their is an equal amount of rot in both the DNC and the GOP.  The DNC ignores sexual allegations against its own members but attacks others. The GOP attacks dems for their Tax a spend ways but spend like drunken sailors while in power.  Both are rotten thats why neither party should be considered when picking a candidate.  There is no base line within those parties any longer.  Once upon a time perhaps you could say this party is that and this party is the other but not anymore.  They both stick their finger in the wind and lean as hard left or right as it takes to get elected.  This is how you end up with Trump and Cortez.  One is a life long moderate liberal pretending to be conservative and the other is a socialist pretending to know anything.

You will likely dispute that life under Obama was the same for conservatives as it is under Trump for others.  That in a nut shell is the issue.  We currently have black lives matter and Anti-fa.  Well unless you forgot Obama's term gave rise to the tea party. If the DNC doesn't wake up to the fact that Trump was a reaction to the Obama admin and its behavior he will win reelection easily.  If they trot out a the same ol same ol its game over.  We need a candidate that is a true moderate.  I know no one on the right wants a Clinton and no one on the left wants a George Bush senior but thats what we actually need.     

BojackHorsefella

What we need are progressive candidates who actually care about the people, not their pockets.

You brought up Obama, I wasn't going to go there, but unlike Trump, Obama was never under investigation, didn't have his constituents indicted or plead guilty to anything. The fervor about Obama was all about Fox News and their Tea Party counterparts, and again, it ended with the GOP decided to block a Supreme Court nomination from him (which would've avoided the whole Kavanaugh debacle). What's dirtier?

If you want to talk policy, fine, lets talk policy. The top 3 issues (and exit polls clearly show this, along with multiple states expanding medicare and even freaking Missouri upping their minimum wage from $7.58 to $12, despite Republican campaigns AGAINST it), are 1) a living wage for all workers, 2) universal healthcare and 3) climate change (I'll say student loan forgiveness is up there, but, honestly, the first 2 would make the whole student loan thing much more palpable. We need reform for that whole system more than forgiveness).

The GOP runs on none of these. Dems, on the other hand, run on this, although there are many who still like to play that "centrist" line.

America's hurting, we all know this. The middle class is disappearing and the GOP, now that they control all branches, made their first two priorities: tax cuts for the wealthy and trying to repeal the ACA, which has saved countless lives since being brought into existence.

You can play the "they're all the same card," but you're simply wrong. Hell, if you want to go with the whole "lesser of two evils" thing, then the Dems are definitely the party that is more interested in empowering this country's citizens than the GOP are. Every single pick Trump has made is a grift: Devos, Price, Tillerson, etc. His federal judges and certainly his most recent Supreme Court pick have no business being in the positions they're in.

Meanwhile, GOP likes to tell everyone "we can't afford universal healthcare," when anyone who's in medical billing will tell you, yeah, we can. We have the infrastructure already in place with medicare, not only that, you can easily cut back on military spending and that freaking border wall.

Funny, how they find the money when it's what they want.

You can say you lean more conservative, and fine, whatever. But this GOP is not conservative. They are so far from what Republicans were (although, I say that, knowing that Reagan basically did the same thing. "Trick down economics," the greatest lie ever sold to the public). And, again, I know all politicians have engaged in "spin" for many years, but it's been a long, long time since we've had the people in charge, like Trump, Huckabee Sanders, and the rest of his crew flat out lying to observers, and not just lying, AGAIN, flouting conspiracy theories and literally releasing doctored videos to try to prove their point.

Did I mention the thousands of children locked up in cages? Did I mention Mexican citizens having their passports taken and citizenship called into question, for no reason? I'm not even talking about the birthright thing, which, cool that Trump thinks he can just change the Constitution with an executive order.

Every little thing the GOP accused Obama of, Trump has done. And of course they celebrate him. So, no, don't belittle me and tell me they're the same. Hate both parties, fine, do what you will, but don't lie to yourself and others and say they're the same. Dems just had their most success with a diverse group of Representatives entering the House. Meanwhile, the GOP has guys like Ted Cruz or Steve King in the Senate, a man who once brazenly said in a tweet ""Diversity is not our strength. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, 'Mixing cultures will not lead to a higher quality of life but a lower one,'"".

And what about sexual predators? Pretty sure that the Dems forced Al Franken out, whereas the GOP was more than happy to advance Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court even though he had 0 entitlement to be there and, especially after his hearing, had 0 credibility left vs Blasey Ford. And don't get me started on Roy Moore.

And antifa? So it's bad to be anti-fascist? For some reason people think the status quo is the way things need to be in this country, and they aren't. The GOP is actively impeding progress on multiple fronts, against scientific fact (LGTBQ rights, climate change, etc) and it's all simply so they can make a buck. And they're not even trying to hide any of it anymore.

I mean, I don't know how to make you CARE about other people, how to make you CARE about voter suppression, but I know Dems weren't pulling these tricks the past 8 years, but we see who was. One party has consistently undermined our Democracy for nearly a decade now, if not longer. The other hasn't. Why should we ever side with the former?

BojackHorsefella

Quote from: Crewe on November 08, 2018, 01:44:08 PM
My intent wasn't to go this deep, but I did steer the conversation.
I made that comment that the left had a more viable reason based on such examples.

I neglected to point out in my response to riggings, that yes, I did say I was left leaning so n apologies for incorrect assumption.


Well, it's the Political Rants forum. So I ranted, haha. Only in here though!

Crewe

Quote from: Rigg44 on November 08, 2018, 02:12:02 PM
I am a registered independent.  I definitely lean more conservative but don't affiliate with either party.  I know you think what you are saying is profound or true but its not.  Everyone of my conservative friends felt exactly the same as you do now under Obama.  They could list the ways that the liberal progressives were destroying the fabric of the country and Obama was abusing his power bla bla bla... its not true on either side. Trump is a jerk but his no more evil that Obama was.    Everything he says is conflated just as it was on the other side for Obama.  Their is an equal amount of rot in both the DNC and the GOP.  The DNC ignores sexual allegations against its own members but attacks others. The GOP attacks dems for their Tax a spend ways but spend like drunken sailors while in power.  Both are rotten thats why neither party should be considered when picking a candidate.  There is no base line within those parties any longer.  Once upon a time perhaps you could say this party is that and this party is the other but not anymore.  They both stick their finger in the wind and lean as hard left or right as it takes to get elected.  This is how you end up with Trump and Cortez.  One is a life long moderate liberal pretending to be conservative and the other is a socialist pretending to know anything.

You will likely dispute that life under Obama was the same for conservatives as it is under Trump for others.  That in a nut shell is the issue.  We currently have black lives matter and Anti-fa.  Well unless you forgot Obama's term gave rise to the tea party. If the DNC doesn't wake up to the fact that Trump was a reaction to the Obama admin and its behavior he will win reelection easily.  If they trot out a the same ol same ol its game over.  We need a candidate that is a true moderate.  I know no one on the right wants a Clinton and no one on the left wants a George Bush senior but thats what we actually need.   

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but Ill answer, starting with the bold. There is no realm in existence where Trump is even remotely on the same plane as Obama. I get that people were vehemently against President Obama, but, he was affable, measured, diplomatic, reasonable and was just what you were asking for, someone to reach across the aisle. He was hamstrung from the word go, but in no way shape or form did he ever resort anything Trump-esque.
And Trump doesn't conflate, he outright lies, sometimes despite video of him saying exactly the opposite and he will still deny it. Presidential? Nah.
I'll go even further that the Tea Party was the catalyst for the break down in decorum in this country. Jan Brewer with her finger in the face of President, that asshole interrupting and shouting out you lie! in the state of the union and etc...
Aside from that, Obama genuinely gave a shit about the people of this country and that's what I believe Democrats do on the whole, whereas Republicans believe the only reason you aren't rich is because you don't wanna be or don't work hard enough, its mind boggling to me.
As I did with Trump, I sought out opposition and had friends who were against Obama and almost all agreed with the characteristics I laid out but had policy issues with the man, i.e. Obamacare and I get that. The guns being abolished was just fear mongering, but I digress.
As for hypocrisy in each party? Most certainly. Corruption? Obviously. Hillary and the whole DNC debacle comes to mind.
But the rage now, which circles back to my straight ticket point, is far more justified than before although I don't agree with it.

Crewe

Quote from: Bucfever on November 08, 2018, 03:07:33 PM
Quote from: Crewe on November 08, 2018, 01:44:08 PM
My intent wasn't to go this deep, but I did steer the conversation.
I made that comment that the left had a more viable reason based on such examples.

I neglected to point out in my response to riggings, that yes, I did say I was left leaning so n apologies for incorrect assumption.


Well, it's the Political Rants forum. So I ranted, haha. Only in here though!

lol no I understand and logically it would unfold into this discussion, but I didnt consider that when I ranted about straight tickets.