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Author Topic: Straight ticket  (Read 313 times)

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Online Crewe

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:00 PM »
and hey, uh, not for nothing but Ill just throw this thought out there too, see what you fellas think.
Ive long held the belief that the lack of education in this country is a primary reason of where we are today in society.
America has been dumbed down for decades and its showing, the running joke is we are living Idiocracy...but of course, its not a joke.

This is my own narrow field of view, but in my job, Ive been exposed to highly educated people, supposed highly educated people. But I cannot tell you how many, engineers, police, doctors, lawyers and the like are quite simply, uneducated. I know that sounds silly to say about an engineer, but, for instance, would you be stunned if I told you that way more than a few don't know the difference between pacific and specific? Or don't know what countries were aligned with the Axis and/or Allies? or that reconstruction took place during and after the Civil War? Or, doesn't know what the D.C. in Washington D.C. represents?
There is a huge void of logic and critical thinking in this country.
I could go on and on, and this is part of our respected community.
Scares the ever loving shit out of me, but then I look around and then just nod to myself and think, of course this is where it led. How could it not?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:12:01 PM by Crewe »

Offline Bucfever

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 05:27:25 PM »
and hey, uh, not for nothing but Ill just throw this thought out there too, see what you fellas think.
Ive long held the belief that the lack of education in this country is a primary reason of where we are today in society.
America has been dumbed down for decades and its showing, the running joke is we are living Idiocracy...but of course, its not a joke.

This is my own narrow field of view, but in my job, Ive been exposed to highly educated people, supposed highly educated people. But I cannot tell you how many, engineers, police, doctors, lawyers and the like are quite simply, uneducated. I know that sounds silly to say about an engineer, but, for instance, would you be stunned if I told you that way more than a few don't know the difference between pacific and specific? Or don't know what countries were aligned with the Axis and/or Allies? or that reconstruction took place during and after the Civil War? Or, doesn't know what the D.C. in Washington D.C. represents?
There is a huge void of logic and critical thinking in this country.
I could go on and on, and this is part of our respected community.
Scares the ever loving shit out of me, but then I look around and then just nod to myself and think, of course this is where it led. How could it not?

Well, when you have a group that's actively labeled all universities as "liberally biased," and mocks professors and scientists as "the liberal elite," you're going to have some of that happening.

I honestly don't know what to do about education. We need to invest more in it, sure, but there's an issue with a lot of authority positions. Teachers, police, military: we need SO MANY of all of these which means, at some point, you're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Then you have money being funneled away to private schools (hi again, Betsy Devos), and you wonder why public schools are having so many issues. Don't get me started on what urban areas go through.

There's also something to be said for the internet (this goes back to some of my random musings in The Life Thread). Even if you're 100% wrong about something, you can just hunker down in your belief with like-minded individuals (hello, anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers). I know that's a bit beyond your example of pacific and specific, but I think it's a symptom of the same issue.

I also think, to a certain extent, there's so much information out there on the internet, there's probably quite a few individuals who think they can just wing it (My ex-wife basically thought she could do anything, including be her own lawyer, via Google). Then you run into untrustworthy sources, purposefully misleading information, etc etc.

It's all an issue.

To go back to Rigg's point, somewhat, one of the best things we can do to fix the whole partisan thing is 1) eliminate money from politics (goodbye lobbyists) and 2) institute term limits for Congress and, yes, the Supreme Court. Once the corporate interests and grifting are dead, you can focus on policies that actually address these issues, rather than line the pockets of others.

Offline Rigg44

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 05:50:59 PM »
What we need are progressive candidates who actually care about the people, not their pockets.

You brought up Obama, I wasn't going to go there, but unlike Trump, Obama was never under investigation, didn't have his constituents indicted or plead guilty to anything. The fervor about Obama was all about Fox News and their Tea Party counterparts, and again, it ended with the GOP decided to block a Supreme Court nomination from him (which would've avoided the whole Kavanaugh debacle). What's dirtier?

If you want to talk policy, fine, lets talk policy. The top 3 issues (and exit polls clearly show this, along with multiple states expanding medicare and even freaking Missouri upping their minimum wage from $7.58 to $12, despite Republican campaigns AGAINST it), are 1) a living wage for all workers, 2) universal healthcare and 3) climate change (I'll say student loan forgiveness is up there, but, honestly, the first 2 would make the whole student loan thing much more palpable. We need reform for that whole system more than forgiveness).

The GOP runs on none of these. Dems, on the other hand, run on this, although there are many who still like to play that "centrist" line.

America's hurting, we all know this. The middle class is disappearing and the GOP, now that they control all branches, made their first two priorities: tax cuts for the wealthy and trying to repeal the ACA, which has saved countless lives since being brought into existence.

You can play the "they're all the same card," but you're simply wrong. Hell, if you want to go with the whole "lesser of two evils" thing, then the Dems are definitely the party that is more interested in empowering this country's citizens than the GOP are. Every single pick Trump has made is a grift: Devos, Price, Tillerson, etc. His federal judges and certainly his most recent Supreme Court pick have no business being in the positions they're in.

Meanwhile, GOP likes to tell everyone "we can't afford universal healthcare," when anyone who's in medical billing will tell you, yeah, we can. We have the infrastructure already in place with medicare, not only that, you can easily cut back on military spending and that freaking border wall.

Funny, how they find the money when it's what they want.

You can say you lean more conservative, and fine, whatever. But this GOP is not conservative. They are so far from what Republicans were (although, I say that, knowing that Reagan basically did the same thing. "Trick down economics," the greatest lie ever sold to the public). And, again, I know all politicians have engaged in "spin" for many years, but it's been a long, long time since we've had the people in charge, like Trump, Huckabee Sanders, and the rest of his crew flat out lying to observers, and not just lying, AGAIN, flouting conspiracy theories and literally releasing doctored videos to try to prove their point.

Did I mention the thousands of children locked up in cages? Did I mention Mexican citizens having their passports taken and citizenship called into question, for no reason? I'm not even talking about the birthright thing, which, cool that Trump thinks he can just change the Constitution with an executive order.

Every little thing the GOP accused Obama of, Trump has done. And of course they celebrate him. So, no, don't belittle me and tell me they're the same. Hate both parties, fine, do what you will, but don't lie to yourself and others and say they're the same. Dems just had their most success with a diverse group of Representatives entering the House. Meanwhile, the GOP has guys like Ted Cruz or Steve King in the Senate, a man who once brazenly said in a tweet "ďDiversity is not our strength. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor OrbŠn, ĎMixing cultures will not lead to a higher quality of life but a lower one,íĒ".

And what about sexual predators? Pretty sure that the Dems forced Al Franken out, whereas the GOP was more than happy to advance Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court even though he had 0 entitlement to be there and, especially after his hearing, had 0 credibility left vs Blasey Ford. And don't get me started on Roy Moore.

And antifa? So it's bad to be anti-fascist? For some reason people think the status quo is the way things need to be in this country, and they aren't. The GOP is actively impeding progress on multiple fronts, against scientific fact (LGTBQ rights, climate change, etc) and it's all simply so they can make a buck. And they're not even trying to hide any of it anymore.

I mean, I don't know how to make you CARE about other people, how to make you CARE about voter suppression, but I know Dems weren't pulling these tricks the past 8 years, but we see who was. One party has consistently undermined our Democracy for nearly a decade now, if not longer. The other hasn't. Why should we ever side with the former?

This is my point by point response.

The last thing we need is a progressive candidate.  We do need a candidate that puts the people above his or her best interests.
As far as me brining up Obama, it was as a counter balance to the current Trump is evil narrative.  To be clear again, I am not a Trump fan but he is the product of the Obama admin.  I know you donít want to see it or canít.  Either way itís the truth.  Its why he kept winning even though everyone thought he was a joke.  They missed the point.  The tea part movement was not constructed by FOX and was a real group of people that felt undeserved and ignored.  Being told they were racist, bible hugging, gun totting, deplorable s for eight years.  You donít recognize how they felt because you donít agree with what they said, its human nature.  I never said that Trump and Obama were a one to one comparison.  In fact, the reaction (Trump) is often stronger that the cause (Obama).  Anyway my initial point was that both parties are rotten.  The only course that is sane is the Centrist line you seem to discount.

I never mentioned policy but ok.  I along with many economists donít think raising the minimum wage does anything but increase cost and decrease workforce.  Expansion of Medicaid is not a liberal or conservative issue, a equal amount of red states expanded right along with the blue states.  And even though loan forgiveness would benefit me I donít think it is an answer to anything. College is expensive and that should be examined.  I believe (after working for a junior college) that it is mostly due to offering courses that lead to degrees in name alone.  If it doesnít get you a career itís a waste of time and resources.   
The GOP doesnít run on those because they donít believe in them.  So whatís your point? Yes Dems run on them and win blue states and lose Red states and? The centrist line is where the majority of the country lies.  We want the parties to work with one another so that everyone is represented not just the half that feeds them money.

I donít think we all think America is hurting.  I think we have a lot of conflated issues that the press and social media feed the flames of because it makes good TV.  The middle class is disappearing but that is because its moving into the upper class.  If you look the middle class has shrank, the poorer class has remained the same and the upper class has grown.  So I have no problem with the middle class moving up.  I would like to see more ladders to success created to help the poor move up into the middle but that is a different subject.  I am a hospital administrator and I can tell you first hand the ACA is an unmitigated disaster.  That being said I donít want either party ďfixingĒ healthcare.  Every time they do itís a disaster. I donít know where you think it has saved lives.  It has raised preimiums and inflated healthcare cost.  EMTALA regulations saved lives, they mandate that everyone that presents to an ER must be evaluated and care for if an emergency.  Those regs were in place long before the ACA.  On another note my wife is medically disabled and has been for years so anyone that says Medicare for all is the answer obviously has never used Medicare or dealt with them extensively. 
 
You must read into things a lot, I never said anything about the lesser of two evils.  In fact, I said they were both rotten.  Thus, why I think straight ticket voting is the result of brainwashing and sheep like mentality. To address your comments though.  The DNC is not about empowering anyone but themselves.  They only defend women when itís convenient or those women align with their beliefs.  The numerous allegations against Clinton are all you need to see to know that.  The evidence in those cases was far more compelling and substantial than the recent allegations against others.
   
Sorry I deal with medical billing all the time and that is false. We donít need to cut military spending and the wall is not a thing yet so its not costing any money.

Again, I donít know why you are trying to lump me in with the GOP.  Again, both parties a rotten not just one. I never claimed they were conservative. I am not going to defend Trump since he is not my guy but the whole doctored video thing has been proven false.  It was the conversion from video to gif that made it appear speed up, but whatever. As far as Reagan goes, your wrong but I this thing is long enough without rehashing his presidency.

Well I am not belittling you I am telling you that both are the same you just canít see it because you donít want to.  You have bought into their sales pitch and thatís fine but itís just that a sales pitch.  If the Dems are so interested in making peopleís lives better and they are ready to save the day, then why in places like Detroit and Chicago where they have been in control for years if not decades are these not liberal utopias?  Instead they are now or turning into poverty stricken, crime ridden, cesspools.  I am not saying the GOP is better.  Brownback has decimated my state with overly conservative policies that gutted us.  Again, BOTH sides are rotten.

I hate to burst your Blue wave bubble but the house always turns over a number of seats when the opposite party is in the White house.  I think Obama saw something like 63 seats turn from blue to Red in his presidency.  There has been far more diversity at top positions with in the GOP than in the DNC.  This is well documented but again I donít care because I am not a republican and never said I was.

Well Al franken was caught with a photo of his doing what he did so they really had no choice.  Kavanaugh had nothing but hear say testimony most of which was never corroborated by the people their own witness said would.  Not to mention that almost all the accusers have recanted or changed their allegations since his appointment.

Antifa advocates violence so yes, they are bad.  I am pro-life but donít advocate any group that would bomb and abortion clinic.  So, if you are pro a group that riots and destroys property and physically attack those with an opposing view thatís on you.

 Sorry but I do CARE about others, I donít CARE about the GOP or the DNC.  You obviously took what I said personally because you are a democrat through and through.  There are plenty of voter fraud cases identifying the Dems as the culprit so why you donít see it I donít know.  They are no better than the other side.  I donít know what you do for a living but I can tell you I help more people in a week than most do in a year.  I have been in health care for almost 30 years.  From CNA to RN to surgical first assistant to administration.  In that time, I would roughly say I have held the hand of least 50 people during their dying moments, helped save over 100 lives from what would have been certain death, and regrettably held 10 or more dead children.  Now days I help under insured people get approved for financial aid or in many cases forgiveness of their bills.  So while I did not take your constant assumption that I love Trump and the GOP personally I do take the assertion that I donít CARE about people personally.  I do, and have spent my life helping others at the worst times of their lives.  I donít agree with you about how to solve problems but that doesnít mean I would demean you as a person.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 06:10:38 PM by Rigg44 »

Offline Rigg44

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 05:56:51 PM »
I am a registered independent.  I definitely lean more conservative but don't affiliate with either party.  I know you think what you are saying is profound or true but its not.  Everyone of my conservative friends felt exactly the same as you do now under Obama.  They could list the ways that the liberal progressives were destroying the fabric of the country and Obama was abusing his power bla bla bla... its not true on either side. Trump is a jerk but his no more evil that Obama was.    Everything he says is conflated just as it was on the other side for Obama.  Their is an equal amount of rot in both the DNC and the GOP.  The DNC ignores sexual allegations against its own members but attacks others. The GOP attacks dems for their Tax a spend ways but spend like drunken sailors while in power.  Both are rotten thats why neither party should be considered when picking a candidate.  There is no base line within those parties any longer.  Once upon a time perhaps you could say this party is that and this party is the other but not anymore.  They both stick their finger in the wind and lean as hard left or right as it takes to get elected.  This is how you end up with Trump and Cortez.  One is a life long moderate liberal pretending to be conservative and the other is a socialist pretending to know anything.

You will likely dispute that life under Obama was the same for conservatives as it is under Trump for others.  That in a nut shell is the issue.  We currently have black lives matter and Anti-fa.  Well unless you forgot Obama's term gave rise to the tea party. If the DNC doesn't wake up to the fact that Trump was a reaction to the Obama admin and its behavior he will win reelection easily.  If they trot out a the same ol same ol its game over.  We need a candidate that is a true moderate.  I know no one on the right wants a Clinton and no one on the left wants a George Bush senior but thats what we actually need.   

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but Ill answer, starting with the bold. There is no realm in existence where Trump is even remotely on the same plane as Obama. I get that people were vehemently against President Obama, but, he was affable, measured, diplomatic, reasonable and was just what you were asking for, someone to reach across the aisle. He was hamstrung from the word go, but in no way shape or form did he ever resort anything Trump-esque.
And Trump doesn't conflate, he outright lies, sometimes despite video of him saying exactly the opposite and he will still deny it. Presidential? Nah.
I'll go even further that the Tea Party was the catalyst for the break down in decorum in this country. Jan Brewer with her finger in the face of President, that asshole interrupting and shouting out you lie! in the state of the union and etc...
Aside from that, Obama genuinely gave a shit about the people of this country and that's what I believe Democrats do on the whole, whereas Republicans believe the only reason you aren't rich is because you don't wanna be or don't work hard enough, its mind boggling to me.
As I did with Trump, I sought out opposition and had friends who were against Obama and almost all agreed with the characteristics I laid out but had policy issues with the man, i.e. Obamacare and I get that. The guns being abolished was just fear mongering, but I digress.
As for hypocrisy in each party? Most certainly. Corruption? Obviously. Hillary and the whole DNC debacle comes to mind.
But the rage now, which circles back to my straight ticket point, is far more justified than before although I don't agree with it.

Obama, was certainly more presentable but he was not any less corrupt, we will just agree to disagree.  The DNC doesn't  care anymore or less about people than the GOP. As far as the GOP and being rich thing, I think its a misrepresentation of their stated beliefs but whatever I am not the GOP guy so I don't care.  I will say this, you can only guarantee fairness of opportunity, fairness of outcome can never be guaranteed.   

Offline Rigg44

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2018, 06:17:43 PM »
and hey, uh, not for nothing but Ill just throw this thought out there too, see what you fellas think.
Ive long held the belief that the lack of education in this country is a primary reason of where we are today in society.
America has been dumbed down for decades and its showing, the running joke is we are living Idiocracy...but of course, its not a joke.

This is my own narrow field of view, but in my job, Ive been exposed to highly educated people, supposed highly educated people. But I cannot tell you how many, engineers, police, doctors, lawyers and the like are quite simply, uneducated. I know that sounds silly to say about an engineer, but, for instance, would you be stunned if I told you that way more than a few don't know the difference between pacific and specific? Or don't know what countries were aligned with the Axis and/or Allies? or that reconstruction took place during and after the Civil War? Or, doesn't know what the D.C. in Washington D.C. represents?
There is a huge void of logic and critical thinking in this country.
I could go on and on, and this is part of our respected community.
Scares the ever loving shit out of me, but then I look around and then just nod to myself and think, of course this is where it led. How could it not?

  I think its two things.  Schools are funded on performance.  So, whatís easier, get better at teaching or lower the bar.  I think we all know lowering the bar is the answer.  I talk with my kids about what they are learning in history and am shocked at what they donít know or are not being told.
Secondly, itís a focus on fields of study that bear no fruit.  I donít think any federal dollars should be spent on electives.  If you want to take them then pay for them.
The only two things that should never be under funded are healthcare and education but that funding must be used judiciously.   

Offline Bucfever

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 07:26:53 PM »
Admittedly, I don't have the argument in me, but my father's been in medical billing since before I was born at this point. He works at a hospital now back in SC and would've been CFO had he wanted the job. He runs the medical billing side of the hospital. I'd love to see you two debate, even though I know he'll never be on here. I say debate because he's all for universal healthcare and Medicare for all.

I will say, and maybe this is a separate argument from that, but it's no secret that medical costs in this country are insane vs most other countries, especially those with "socialized" healthcare. To your point about high wages leading to a decreased workforce, well, this is also a separate argument but this can easily be pointed at capitalism being a shoddy system (or just plain old fashioned corporate greed). We all know 1% have 99% of the wealth. We see guys like Bezos, the richest man in America, and we've all seen the stories about how his workforce is treated. The only reason higher wages lead to a decreased workforce are these higher corporate officials, with insane pay and corporate buyouts (to date myself a bit, just look at Circuit City. Driven into bankruptcy, no care for the workers, but the man who got us there, Phil Schoonover, enjoyed a very expensive payout despite running the company into the ground).

I know everyone hates this word, but "redistribution" of wealth is only a bad thing to those who have the wealth. And why they don't see that more Americans with more buying power would be better for them in the end (it'd be better for a great many of things: new investor stream, new entrepreneurs with more opportunity, etc etc) until you convince them that they should give up 9 of their 10 yachts to hire x amount of people, yeah, you'll have they.

If we want to go with the "both parties are rotten and corrupt" thing, we have to ask why. Well, certainly part of it is general power, everyone wants power. But I imagine the other part would be money. Lobbyist money, policies that line their pockets, and, in true criminal corruption cases, bribery or course. So, let me ask this then: what would you do to fix these things? Is it as simple as eliminating the lobby element from politics (and PACs and such), or is there a different approach you'd take?

Also, I'd be very, very curious to see these stats about the middle class moving into the upper class, because that runs opposite to everything I've seen (I also wonder, once you supply those stats, if that's the result of Obama's economic policies, as he had to fight his way out of the recession while in office).

Offline Bucfever

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2018, 07:32:18 PM »
Let me also add, for what it's worth, I don't consider myself a Democrat. I guess I could say progressive, although I don't like using labels. They're not NFL teams.

But the Dems do typically support the policies I support more than the GOP does. Climate change, free education (not as much but I did come up in 2016), universal healthcare, etc. We see countries like Iceland, Denmark, Germany, hell Canada too that have many of these things, and they can afford them, and yet time after time were told we can't do it here.

No one should have to die because they can't afford healthcare. Period. That's just a belief of mine.

And, for what it's worth, when it comes to antifa, the only violence they've engaged in is in protests against these white supremacist rallies. Again: a woman died as the result of getting hit by a car, intentionally, and yet we don't see Fox or CNN ever talk about that side, it's always antifa. Now, that being said, I don't really approve of the stunt outside Tucker Carlson's house recently, but also maybe Tucker shouldn't have actual white supremacists on his show and spout of debunked conspiracy theories.

Also, even if the video wasn't altered intentionally, they still stood by it.

Offline Bucfever

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2018, 07:33:27 PM »
That's it for me for now. Off work and I hate typing out these looooong posts on my phone, so I probably won't respond to anything else in here until Monday (at least, I won't be responding with anything long and thought out).

Online Crewe

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Re: Straight ticket
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 10:12:13 PM »
I am a registered independent.  I definitely lean more conservative but don't affiliate with either party.  I know you think what you are saying is profound or true but its not.  Everyone of my conservative friends felt exactly the same as you do now under Obama.  They could list the ways that the liberal progressives were destroying the fabric of the country and Obama was abusing his power bla bla bla... its not true on either side. Trump is a jerk but his no more evil that Obama was.    Everything he says is conflated just as it was on the other side for Obama.  Their is an equal amount of rot in both the DNC and the GOP.  The DNC ignores sexual allegations against its own members but attacks others. The GOP attacks dems for their Tax a spend ways but spend like drunken sailors while in power.  Both are rotten thats why neither party should be considered when picking a candidate.  There is no base line within those parties any longer.  Once upon a time perhaps you could say this party is that and this party is the other but not anymore.  They both stick their finger in the wind and lean as hard left or right as it takes to get elected.  This is how you end up with Trump and Cortez.  One is a life long moderate liberal pretending to be conservative and the other is a socialist pretending to know anything.

You will likely dispute that life under Obama was the same for conservatives as it is under Trump for others.  That in a nut shell is the issue.  We currently have black lives matter and Anti-fa.  Well unless you forgot Obama's term gave rise to the tea party. If the DNC doesn't wake up to the fact that Trump was a reaction to the Obama admin and its behavior he will win reelection easily.  If they trot out a the same ol same ol its game over.  We need a candidate that is a true moderate.  I know no one on the right wants a Clinton and no one on the left wants a George Bush senior but thats what we actually need.   

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but Ill answer, starting with the bold. There is no realm in existence where Trump is even remotely on the same plane as Obama. I get that people were vehemently against President Obama, but, he was affable, measured, diplomatic, reasonable and was just what you were asking for, someone to reach across the aisle. He was hamstrung from the word go, but in no way shape or form did he ever resort anything Trump-esque.
And Trump doesn't conflate, he outright lies, sometimes despite video of him saying exactly the opposite and he will still deny it. Presidential? Nah.
I'll go even further that the Tea Party was the catalyst for the break down in decorum in this country. Jan Brewer with her finger in the face of President, that asshole interrupting and shouting out you lie! in the state of the union and etc...
Aside from that, Obama genuinely gave a shit about the people of this country and that's what I believe Democrats do on the whole, whereas Republicans believe the only reason you aren't rich is because you don't wanna be or don't work hard enough, its mind boggling to me.
As I did with Trump, I sought out opposition and had friends who were against Obama and almost all agreed with the characteristics I laid out but had policy issues with the man, i.e. Obamacare and I get that. The guns being abolished was just fear mongering, but I digress.
As for hypocrisy in each party? Most certainly. Corruption? Obviously. Hillary and the whole DNC debacle comes to mind.
But the rage now, which circles back to my straight ticket point, is far more justified than before although I don't agree with it.

Obama, was certainly more presentable but he was not any less corrupt, we will just agree to disagree.  The DNC doesn't  care anymore or less about people than the GOP. As far as the GOP and being rich thing, I think its a misrepresentation of their stated beliefs but whatever I am not the GOP guy so I don't care.  I will say this, you can only guarantee fairness of opportunity, fairness of outcome can never be guaranteed.

Obama as corrupt as Trump? Thats just simply outlandish, so yea, we will have to disagree there.

Building on your both sides are evil, I do tend to agree in that the graft is spread around both parties without apology.
Im also a firm believer that while some, one of which I believe was Obama, arrive in politics with true noble intentions, but the office changes the man, the man doesn't change the office.
That said, I think Democratic policies are geared more towards helping the unfortunate and leveling the playing field.

Well yea, I mean they aren't going to put something like that in their doctrine but many on the right have uttered variances of that statement often.

Ultimately, we agree on straight ticket voting and will have to accept that we are in disagreement elsewhere.
Appreciate your input
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 10:34:09 PM by Crewe »

 

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